Curse

actionjack · Sep 27, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Well.. I say it is a secret conspircy that the dev make the weapons for the new class better so to get people to buy there game....mmm... conspircy...

Anyhow.. I would recomand making the Spear shorter range than that of bows. Afterall, they are meant more for mid-ranger fighting (and you got a shield for it) Also might want to reduce the attack speed for it, and maybe up the damage power (afterall, spear is lot bigger than arrow...)

For scythe... I think the damage is balance, as it has a wider attack range. But maybe just me, but still feel that its attacking speed are faster than hammer.. might want to lower that more to factor in the multi attacks.

Why_Me · Sep 27, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

This thread is getting a bit off topic, but anyway...
There is one more thing to consider when comparing spears to bows. Spears always have the same range, arc, and refire rate. Bows change. Being able to have an arrow hit almost immediately with a recurve and read the wind is much more valuable to me than DPS. Same with range, a longbow can shoot a lot farther than a spear. Want damage? Get a hornbow, inherent 10% armor penetration isn't something spears can achieve.

Mordakai · Sep 27, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

OK, now we've settled weapon rates, how do you determine DPS?

I took the avg. damage of a weapon (18.5 for sword), and divided it by the refire rate and got these numbers:

Sword: 13.9 dam/rate
Axe: 12.7 dam/rate
Hammer: 30.8 dam/rate
Scythe: 28.5 dam/rate

of course, this does not take into account crits (which would make Scythe higher), or area attacks (again, making Scythe higher), or any skills.

ss1986v2 · Sep 27, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

yes, back on topic now. i think a small decrease to the spear range would be fine, but if that happens, id say keep the dmg and the speed where they are at. paragons are alrdy at a disadvantage not being a core class, they are gonna get a lot of undeserved hate. no need to compound it.

plus, who says ranger is supposed to be the only ranged attacker in gw? why cant the paragon be just as or nearly as good at ranged damage? rangers have spirits, paragons have shouts, it all balances out.

Clawdius_Talonious · Sep 27, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

You can obtain FRAPS at www.fraps.com

PVP is the reason everything is balanced, but it helps in PVE as well, if everything was unbalanced the only thing you'd see in PVE would be the few character types that were unbalanced with benefits, and the other classes wouldn't serve the purpose they were intended to.

Saider maul · Sep 27, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I agree on scythe dmg being to inconsistant making it an unreliable dmg dealer as scythe user.
The dervish is great conditioning, alot of timing, and fairly technical to work due to the co-op of enchantments and attack skills.
A good class but need a slight balance in the range of dmg it deals out.
I'd like to see a 1.50 sec attack speed and tighter window for the base dmg then any one of the Scythe skills changed even thought some of the skills do have high recharges and could use about a 3-5 sec recharge reduction.

Paragon range should be the range of earshot period. my only beef with them is stunning spear. with an adreniline booster its way to spammable for the unconditional dazed duration it inflicts.

I think if they balance this right it will make up for factions and may even make up for not totally fixing the assassin.lol

1 more question... Pepsi, your name wouldn't happen to be leeroy by any chance would it?

Mercury Angel · Sep 27, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Spears definitely have their uses in their own right, and I love the Paragon no matter what role I'm playing with them, but Spears and Bows are definitely 2 unique weapons played 2 different ways. I don't feel that either weapon obsoletes the other at all.

That, and if you played paragon over the weekend, you probably rekindled your love for Read the Wind with a bow. <_< Spears have awful flight times, and they're incredibly easy to strafe unless you dedicate slots to snaring foes.

chicks boy · Sep 27, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Yes I Agreee!!!!!! Paragons Should Not Be Ranged Melee!!! Spears R Suppsoed To Be Like Melee Front Line Jus Like In Diablo2, Dynasty Warriors Etc... !!!!!!!!!

akh · Sep 27, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

i don't get your point guys. you are not limited to shortbows only. you have 5 different types of bows and skills that will outdamage every spearmaster.
and scythe... so you are trying to tell me that scythe is unbalanced because it deals more damage than hammer ? you forgot that dervish is light armored character and scythe is supposed to compensate this. you don't expect either warrior to have best possible armor and highest damage weapon or dervish to be light armored with low damage weapon, do you ?

Clawdius_Talonious · Sep 27, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicks boy

Yes I Agreee!!!!!! Paragons Should Not Be Ranged Melee!!! Spears R Suppsoed To Be Like Melee Front Line Jus Like In Diablo2, Dynasty Warriors Etc... !!!!!!!!!

Words are supposed to be typed, and not abreviated to single letters, but that didn't stop you from doing it your own way did it? Well, in real life spears can be ranged or melee, of course you can't endlessly throw the same spear... But lets not get into that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by akh

i don't get your point guys. you are not limited to shortbows only. you have 5 different types of bows and skills that will outdamage every spearmaster.
and scythe... so you are trying to tell me that scythe is unbalanced because it deals more damage than hammer ? you forgot that dervish is light armored character and scythe is supposed to compensate this. you don't expect either warrior to have best possible armor and highest damage weapon or dervish to be light armored with low damage weapon, do you ?

it has the potential to deal more damage, it also has the potential to deal close to the least damage of any weapon in the game with 9 being it's low point

Kryopsis · Sep 27, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

If all weapons were created equal then most classes would lose their appeal.

Sorry I don't want my class options to be equal. I want them to be good at the roles they perform.

Which is why a paragon (support yeller) dealing as much damage as a ranger (ranged specialist) makes no sense. Weapons should not be equal: they should be balanced accordingly.

Quote:

Yes I Agreee!!!!!! Paragons Should Not Be Ranged Melee!!! Spears R Suppsoed To Be Like Melee Front Line Jus Like In Diablo2, Dynasty Warriors Etc... !!!!!!!!!

First, ask mom to buy you a thesaurus for christmas.
Second, you could throw javelins in Diablo2.
Besides, no one is saying Paragons should be melee fighters but they have no need for a high-damage weapon. I wasn't serious when I asked for a higher damage-dealing weapon for my ritualist but I tried to make a point. Casters (especially monks, mesmers and ritualists) need good weapons as much as paragons: in other words, they don't.

As for people who think balance is irrelevant, they should go PVP in Diablo2.

dawnrain · Sep 27, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Balancing weapons solely on their auto-attack damage went out with Factions and the introduction of daggers. A two-handed melee weapon that at best (provided you're an assassin using a -75hp rune) does ~95% of a hammer's (the only other two-handed melee weapon) damage and at worst ~62%.

I was actually surprised the designers didn't tie some of the scythe and spear properties to the applicable attributes. For example the number of additional targets a scythe could hit is dependent on scythe mastery and the range of the spear is dependent on spear mastery.

actionjack · Sep 27, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Maybe they could have vary damage with the spear depend on the distance.
So at far distance, (like range of horn bow), would have -25% damage, where when it throw close (a ranger shorter than that of short bow), will have normal damage.

Bow and spear, which is faster? (also keep in mind that spear is one-handed)

Quid Pro Quo · Sep 27, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawnrain

I was actually surprised the designers didn't tie some of the scythe and spear properties to the applicable attributes. For example the number of additional targets a scythe could hit is dependent on scythe mastery and the range of the spear is dependent on spear mastery.

Wow.. thats an extremely great idea.

akh · Sep 27, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryopsis

Which is why a paragon (support yeller) dealing as much damage as a ranger (ranged specialist) makes no sense.

paragon doesn't deal as much damage as ranger.
*ranger has expertise which allow him to spam his skills
*ranger doesn't have to "waste" time on activating chants, he only reaply preparation every 24 sec
*ranger has barrage
*ranger has 2 penetrating attacks (weaker than spear of lightning but shorter recharge)
*ranger has dual shot
paragon skills are adrenal. the most damaging skills such as cruel spear and stunning strike require 7/10 adrenaline and are elites. as a paragon you neither attack as often as warrior nor take as much damage so you gain adrenaline much slower unless you use focused avenger which is elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kryopsis

ranged specialist

thats why ranger has longest range weapons in game.

lightblade · Sep 28, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Bow can have skills to decrease their flight time...spears however doesn't..

TheBaron82 · Sep 28, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by akh

paragon doesn't deal as much damage as ranger.
*ranger has expertise which allow him to spam his skills
*ranger doesn't have to "waste" time on activating chants, he only reaply preparation every 24 sec
*ranger has barrage
*ranger has 2 penetrating attacks (weaker than spear of lightning but shorter recharge)
*ranger has dual shot
paragon skills are adrenal. the most damaging skills such as cruel spear and stunning strike require 7/10 adrenaline and are elites. as a paragon you neither attack as often as warrior nor take as much damage so you gain adrenaline much slower unless you use focused avenger which is elite.

thats why ranger has longest range weapons in game.

I totally agree, plus if you want to use spear instead of bow as a ranger, go ahead but keep in mind that you put 97 attribute points into spear to raise it to 12.

TGgold · Sep 28, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I thought that they're balanced just fine.
I AM getting annoyed with things like...
Ranger = Ranged Specialist (trappers and BMs probably aren't happy with this generalization. I'd say that Rangers are hammer masters too :P)
Paragon = Shout Support (well...it seems he has decend damage capacity...his damage seems more competent than say, a smite monk.)

They are TWO different classes. They serve DIFFERENT purposes. A ranger doesn't use adreneline. A paragon doesn't have a projectile speed-increasing ability. The ranger has X skills. The para has Y skills.

The weapons seem to fit what the character needs.

Now, as a ranger using a bow, would an offhand really *really* help you? What isn't covered by a bow that you desperately need? Energy? I mean, it's not like you have Expertise or anything.
Paras: They get an offhand and a shield. Now, seeing as they're a midline fighter, or frontline (need to keep your targets in earshot), it seems that the addition of a sheild is warrented. The one handed spear seems just fine to balance this. The damage seems fine as well. They fly really...really...slow. Lets hope the AI doesn't learn how to strafe.

Yawgmoth · Sep 28, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

IMHO the weapons are balanced well.

I think the basic stats of spears and scythes were among the first things developed during creating the new professions. And they had to balance them first, to create and test skills after that. See that the damage didn't change since the PvP preview event? And lots of nerfage came since then.

Paragons won't obsolete rangers as ranged damage dealers, we can be sure about that

TadaceAce · Sep 28, 2006, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Dumb thread if you ask me,

You can't compare bow to spear or scythe to hammer, thats like comparing apples to oranges. Bow gets kindle arrows or read the wind, boom it now does more damage than the spear! Hammer gets knockdowns, crushing blow, and irresistable blow... scythe gets as yet to be proven otherwise crappy conditional scythe attacks.

I am looking foward to running R/D with a scythe though, along with the already proven good R/P.